Anna 0:12

In today's episode, we are going to talk about a very British tradition afternoon tea, and I'm very happy to be joined by my very good friend, Charlie. Hello!

Charlie 0:26

Hello. Thank you very much for having me.

Anna 0:28

You're welcome. I'm really, really pleased that you've decided to join me today. So, Charlie, how do you feel about afternoon tea?

Charlie 0:38

Well, food in general is probably my favourite topic to talk about, and afternoon tea, I like it very much. Um, I suppose it's one of those things that I don't have... it's a treat for me. And it's something that perhaps me and a family friends will do on a birthday or like I say, is a special treat rather than it being something that I do regularly at home. Um, but I have to say that life has got rather boring for me because I try not to eat too much refined sugar, trying to be healthy. So, that does change afternoon tea a little bit for me. Um, but the joy of afternoon tea is that it's not all about the cakes.

Anna 1:23

Well, that brings me very, um, nicely onto what afternoon tea actually consists of because some people may never have experienced this tradition. So, afternoon tea, as the name suggests, obviously has tea as a-- a main component, but it also consists of sandwiches and scones, and pastries or cakes. So, let's start with the origins of afternoon tea. It actually started back in the 1840s with the Duchess of Bedford, Anna, I believe her name was. She was hungry between lunch and dinner. And so, she asked for some sandwiches and some, some cakes, some pastries to be brought to her and she enjoyed doing this. So, she did it again and again, and eventually Queen Victoria dropped in. She would obviously working in high circles back then, um, back then as if she still survives now. Queen Victoria joined her and this then became a tradition because once the Queen does something, at least in the past, everyone took note. So, sandwiches. Now the sandwiches of an afternoon tea are quite delicate. Uh, as far as I know, you tend to cut off the crusts and if you are having afternoon tea in a restaurant or a hotel, they actually serve them as little rectangles. Is that your experience?

Charlie 2:54

That's true. Yeah. Crusts cut off and they're meant to be like finger sandwiches. So, it's also meant to be very delicate, very dainty and something that you can hold with one hand and eat in a very ladylike fashion without necessarily spilling the contents down your lap or getting your face or fingers all mucky.

Anna 3:14

Absolutely. Because one thing we haven't mentioned is the afternoon tea really now is a social thing, isn't it? It's about spending time with your friends and family, or maybe even, uh, a business event. So, you might take your clients out for afternoon tea to discuss business. So, you don't want to be there with a mouthful, two hands on your sandwich, having a mouthful of food and then trying to discuss things. So, all very dainty, very light. Um, savoury part to the afternoon tea. And also because you're gonna have dinner afterwards as well, right? So not eating crust. I mean, that just makes me think of what my mum always used to say is that you have to eat your crust because crust make your hair curly. Have you heard that?

Charlie 4:00

I've heard that, or that you'll get hair on your chest.

Anna 4:03

Oh...

Charlie 4:04

If you eat the crust.

Anna 4:05

If you do or you don't?

Charlie 4:07

If you do!

Anna 4:09

If you do, you'll get hairs on your chest?

Charlie 4:11

Yeah. I'm sure I've heard that before. I obviously recognise that that was a load of rubbish. So, I enjoyed the crust. I think I'd prefer the crust more than any other part of the bread, to be honest.

Anna 4:22

Really?

Charlie 4:23

Yeah. Especially if it's, um, like I love the end of the bread as well. I know that's quite controversial. Usually people, you know, fight for not having that, the end of the bread, but I, I like the end of the bread and yeah, a really crusty crust.

Anna 4:39

Do you know what the end of the bread is called? It has a name? I only found this out recently. No? It's called the heel, the heel of the bread. I think I've got that right. I'm sure my listeners will now be Googling,“The end of the bread. Is it called the heel?” But yeah, I think it's called the heel.

Charlie 4:56

Okay.

Anna 4:56

Um, yeah, I only have that. If we are running low on bread and I'm desperate for toast or a sandwich, then I'll have it. If that's all there is. But otherwise...

Charlie 5:06

It also tends to be thicker. It tends to be thicker than the rest of the bread. And I am someone who loves the thick piece of bread. I remember my family always used to-- laugh at me and still remind me of this, of me, of this to this day. That when I was a little girl, I was a little bit overweight when I was younger and partly because I loved bread and butter and we would get unsliced bread and so I would come in and try and cut myself a slice of bread, and it would start at the top, like a-- a proper slice, you know, quite thin. And then it would just get thicker and thicker and thicker.

Anna 5:40

Like a wedge.

Charlie 5:41

A wedge. We used to call it a doorstop, and then I'd put butter on it and I was happy.

Anna 5:47

In heaven.

Charlie 5:48

Absolutely.

Anna 5:49

In bread heaven.

Charlie 5:50

Bread heaven, white bread, butter..

Anna 5:53

Wow!

Charlie 5:53

..massive wedge. Very happy.

Anna 5:55

Do you eat much bread now?

Charlie 5:57

No. I think in order to, in order to maintain a weight, I suppose I recognise that for me, and this is purely personal, bread, I, I can't enjoy too much bread. I love it. And I have it again as a special treat, but I do enjoy gluten free bread.

Anna 6:16

Mm-hmm.

Charlie 6:16

There are so many varieties out there, actually that brown bread. Uh, so I don't allow myself to have too much, but when I do have it, I am reminded of, yeah, good times when I was younger.

Anna 6:30

So, if you are enjoying afternoon tea, what kind of, uh, filling would you expect in a sandwich?

Charlie 6:39

So generally you can expect things.. It depends on where you are going, but usually you'd have, was it salmon and cream cheese?

Anna 6:48

Mm-hmm.

Charlie 6:49

You'd have maybe egg mayonnaise, cucumber sandwiches.

Anna 6:55

Oh, cucumber sandwiches.

Charlie 6:56

Cucumber sandwiches. It sounds, it sounds so wrong, but it's so good.

Anna 7:00

Mm-hmm

Charlie 7:01

But you've gotta have them fresh. You've gotta have them at the time that you're making them'cause otherwise the liquid, the, the moisture from the cucumber gets into the bread and it makes it soggy. And we don't want..

Anna 7:10

Yeah. We don't want soggy sandwiches.

Charlie 7:12

We don't want soggy sandwiches. Coronation chicken. That's another one I've seen quite a few times.

Anna 7:17

Yeah, that's kind of like a curried chicken, isn't it? That was actually invented for the Queen's coronation.

Charlie 7:24

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. With apricots in it. Dried apricots it's delicious. I'm a vegetarian, but I can still enjoy it with fake chicken. But yeah, so delicious. It's definitely worth a try.

Anna 7:39

Yeah, and prawn mayonnaise.

Charlie 7:40

Of course. Yep. Prawn mayonnaise. Yeah.

Anna 7:41

And with the egg, you mentioned egg mayonnaise. And that could be like egg and cress.

Charlie 7:48

Yeah.

Anna 7:48

It would be egg mayonnaise with crest or egg mayonnaise with tomato sometimes.

Charlie 7:54

Yeah.

Anna 7:55

Yeah. And then you might have a ham and mustard. Just basic, straightforward or a cheese sandwich.

Charlie 8:01

Cheese sandwich. Cheese and tomato. But again, it's I suppose it's also making sure that same with the egg, you've got to have the mayonnaise and things like that to make sure that binds together. So, again, when you're eating it, it's not all falling out all over your lap.

Anna 8:13

No. Now thinking about cucumber sandwiches. I for a very short time, I don't know if you know this, Charlie, I worked at Buckingham Palace.

Charlie 8:23

I didn't know that.

Anna 8:24

You didn't know this? So, this was actually after we were at uni together. And when I first moved to London, I was very poor. I'd been a student for years and had no savings moved to London to come and do my masters. And I just took all the work that was available to me which involved you know, doing waiting on jobs. So, being a waitress and, and a hostess and things like this. And I ended up working for a company that supplied the waitstaff for the Queen's Garden Parties.

Charlie 8:57

Wow!

Anna 8:57

So, I spent a summer serving, you know, some very important people in the in Buckingham Palace Gardens, and they served cucumber sandwiches there and it had like a mint, kind of like, like dressing on it as well. It was absolutely delicious. And the thing with cucumber sandwiches is they have to be on white bread. It's definitely a white bread sandwich. Well, at least that's how the Queen has it.

Charlie 9:26

Really?

Anna 9:26

Yeah, yeah. And it was so structured as well for the Queen when she would come out they'd be saying right,“The Queen will appear at the door at 12:05.” so, that's when the tea must the-- the pots must be boiled, and then she will make her way through the crowd talking to people.“And by 12:13 she'll be taking her seat,” and this is when her tea bag must go in and it must sit in her in her tea cup for I don’t know. She probably didn't have bags actually I didn't prepare her tea, but it was very rigid. The schedule for serving her tea and-- and food.

Charlie 10:05

Wow.

Anna 10:05

So, yes, that's what I think of when I think of cucumber sandwiches, is royalty.

Charlie 10:10

Yeah, it's definitely seen as a very posh, you know, people would say,“Well, that's quite posh.”

Anna 10:15

Yeah.

Charlie 10:15

Cucumber sandwiches.

Anna 10:16

Yeah. And you take the skin off the cucumber, don't you? So that's Yeah, at least that's how we did it there. And moving on after our little selection of sandwiches, you move on to the next part, which is‘scone’, or‘scone’? There's a lot of controversy about how you pronounce this word. Is it‘scone’? Or is it‘scone’? How do you pronounce it?

Charlie 10:45

Well, to be honest with you, I think I've said it both ways, several times in my life, but I think‘scone’ is what I tend to go with.

Anna 10:53

Mm-hum.

Charlie 10:54

Yeah.

Anna 10:54

From what I'm told that is the majority rule. So, the majority of people do say‘scone’ and that's considered the most correct way to say it, but some people do, say‘scone’, and that's okay, too. Now, with your‘scone’, you will have jam and cream. That's the custom, you can't have a scone without jam and cream. But the question is, in what order? Do you put the jam and cream onto your scone?

Charlie 11:22

It's definitely different, isn't it? Is it Devon and Cornwall, they're the ones that determine, you know, some will say in Devon, it's one way in Cornwall, it's the other? And I don't know the answer to that. But I would probably say, I don't have the cream, I have to say. But if I was, I’d probably put that on first because it's like the butter. Right? And you put the butter on a sandwich first and then the cream. So, that's what, that's what I would do. But I think it's personal preference.

Anna 11:49

I'm really impressed that you know about the Devon and the Cornwall thing there. But um, the answer to your question is Devon, they say that you should put the cream on first. So, anyone in Devon would suggest cream goes first and then jam goes on last. But if you're in Cornwall, they say that the jam goes on first and the cream goes on afterwards. I think I'm like you. I think I’d put the cream on and then the jam.

Charlie 12:19

Yeah.

Anna 12:20

Yeah.

Charlie 12:20

Do you spread it or do you use a spoon?

Anna 12:23

I use a spoon.

Charlie 12:24

Yeah.

Anna 12:24

But then I do flatten it out with the spoon. So, it's not too messy. It's funny because I don't like cream. And I will not have cream with anything else. It has to be a part of the scone.

Charlie 12:39

Yeah, okay.

Anna 12:41

Yeah.

Charlie 12:42

Yes. see I'm just a jam, straight jam... And the scone has to have raisins. It has to have raisins none of the plain...

Anna 12:49

A fruit scone.

Charlie 12:50

None of the plain stuff.

Anna 12:51

Yeah. So, you can have a fruit scone, which’s got raisins, currents in it or a savoury scone, I think it's referred to if it isn’t-- if it isn't a fruit scone. It's a savoury scone.

Charlie 13:01

Or you have cheese scone.

Anna 13:03

Oh, I've never had....

Charlie 13:06

Oh. Yeah. There's scones with cheese now.

Anna 13:07

So, what do you do with those put butter on them?

Charlie 13:10

Butter or you can have a-- a sort of cream cheese and chive spread.

Anna 13:17

Oh, very nice. And do you like your scone warm?

Charlie 13:21

I do. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I will accept a cold scone. But if it can be warmed delicious.

Anna 13:29

Yeah,'cause they can be quite dry I think it can dry your mouth out. But if they're warm, it's-- they're just a bit softer and they melt a little bit more in your mouth.

Charlie 13:36

Yeah.

Anna 13:37

I'm getting hungry now.

Charlie 13:38

I know me too.

Anna 13:41

So, after that, if you're not completely full by this point, then you're going to move onto the cake or the pastries. I think traditionally it was just cake. So, you'd have a Victoria sponge. If it was summertime. And you'd have a fruit cake some form of fruitcake if it was wintertime. But from experience when you go and have afternoon tea these days, they will have a selection, a variety of all sorts of different pastries or cakes and they're usually quite small little delicate things very beautiful. Very hard to finish at all. So, I always need a doggy bag to take away the leftovers. It's funny that it's called a doggy bag, for those of you listening who have no idea what I'm talking about. If you're eating at a restaurant, or a cafe and you haven't finished your food, but you-- you're done and you need to go because you're full or because time is pressing, you can ask for a doggy bag and this means that they'll take the food and place it into a takeaway box or bag so that you can take it home and finish it off later. And it's called a doggy bag but it's not for dogs.

Charlie 14:53

No, and it makes it sound horrible.

Anna 14:55

I know.

Charlie 14:56

But it's a very nice thing. Very nice thing, because the food is so delicious. And sometimes it's even better the next day or cold. And plus, you don't feel like you're insulting the restaurant by not finishing your meal.

Anna 15:08

Yeah, absolutely. And usually, you pay a lot of money for-- for the afternoon tea, so you don't want to waste anything. But do you have... you're a really good baker actually, aren't you? You bake your own cakes?

Charlie 15:21

I do. I like baking, I wouldn't say I'm great. There are some things that I'm better at than other things. I feel like I'm known for my Christmas cake. And I have orders now, at... as I'm coming up to Christmas, people put their orders in for my Christmas cake, which is a very heavy fruit cake, with then a layer of marzipan and a layer of icing over the top of that. But with a very special ingredient. Yes, brandy. There's quite a little bit of.. and I think that's probably why mine is so popular is because I'm a little heavy handed with the branding. So, you're not allowed to drive, when you have a slice of my Christmas cake? So, I really enjoy making that. Sponge? I'm not so bad with. Meringues? I've never mastered the art of meringues. Ever.

Anna 16:14

Really? What do they do? They just end up sticky or not rising properly?

Charlie 16:18

Burning them!

Anna 16:19

Oh!

Charlie 16:19

Just yeah, not—not-- but I think out of cooking and baking, so making more savoury things and baking sweet stuff. I definitely prefer the sweet stuff. I think it's my decoration at the end that perhaps is a little lacking. The taste-- the flavour’s, good. The decoration... I remember I tried one year to make my sister a cake. And I was going to decorate it like Hansel and Gretel. And so, what I wanted was to make a roof out of cereal. So, say like Weetabix or shredded wheat or something to make it look like a thatched roof. Then I was going to have sweets, around the window frames all of these things. And I had this perfect idea in my head, what it was going to look like. And it looked nothing like that. The cereal kept on falling off the roof.

Anna 17:12

Oh, no.

Charlie 17:14

Yeah. And just everything that I had in mind. You know, it just it looked like a mess. It looked like an absolute mess. So..

Anna 17:21

But tasted good?

Charlie 17:23

It tasted good. Yes. So, we enjoyed the taste. And Harriet sort of raved about how good it tasted. But there were no photos of it.

Anna 17:31

Oh bless. I I made Jacob's, my son Jacob's first birthday cake, because he has a dairy allergy, as you know. And I wanted to make the most delicious cake. But because of the dairy allergy, I had to, I think I used banana to bind it or something. And-- I put it in the oven and the instruction said you need to put a knife into it when the time is done. And then if the knife comes out clean, it means the cake is cooked all the way through. So...

Charlie 18:07

I know where this is going, I know where this is going. Okay.

Anna 18:10

I kept putting the knife in and pulling it out. And then it kept coming out sticky. And I was like,“Oh no!” So, I kept putting it back in the oven for a little more time, a little more time until eventually it had been in the oven for twice as long as its original bake time. And I thought this can't be right. And it was starting to go black and hard around the outside. So, I thought this is just burning. So, I took it out and I cut it in half. And I let some cool and I tried some and it was it was delicious. And then I realised the reason it was sticky is because of the banana. And it was always going to be sticky. But I'd now burnt the entire cake. So, what I had to do was like carve a wedge off the top and off the sides just to save the softer stuff on the inside. And then I think I used green icing to decorate it because or green you know the kind of softer not the hard icing.

Charlie 19:01

Oh.

Anna 19:02

You know, like you mix with butter, but I'm used like a ma-- yeah, it was a mess. It was a mess. And so, I bought a cake to go alongside it for the guests. And lo and behold, hardly anyone tried my cake.

Charlie 19:15

Oh, I would have tried it. I love banana cake and actually not eating sugar. Bananas naturally sweeten the cake without adding any sugar in it amazing.

Anna 19:25

Yeah.

Charlie 19:25

Plus, you know-- and you can hide a multitude of sins with icing so I would have tried it.

Anna 19:30

Oh, thank you. I tell you what is great, actually, that we've recently discovered is putting a mashed banana in your porridge. Have you ever done that?

Charlie 19:39

No.

Anna 19:39

Yeah, it's great. When you're cooking the porridge mash up a banana. Throw it in, mix it in as you're warming the porridge through and it just is absolutely amazing. We did it once just by chance the other day'cause we always experiment with flavours of our porridge. And now I don't like porridge without a banana mashed into it. It's lovely. Plus it's a good

Charlie 19:59

thing to do with bananas that are going quite brown.

Anna 20:01

Yeah.

Charlie 20:01

You know when on-- if you[were] just to cut it up it would be a bit... gross

Anna 20:05

Yeah.

Charlie 20:05

But, mashing up is great. The other thing you can try as well is mashing a banana with an egg and frying it.

Anna 20:11

As a pancake.

Charlie 20:12

That's really good too.

Anna 20:13

Yeah, yeah, we do that sometimes. We tend to have very messy breakfasts, lots of cooking and mixing goes on. Anyway, we're digressing. Let me pull us back. And to the most important part of afternoon tea, which is tea, of course. Now, some people will serve Earl Grey and, in most places, you would also expect English breakfast tea. But what do you like English breakfast or Earl Grey?

Charlie 20:44

I am definitely an English breakfast or builder's tea kind of girl. I do like Earl Grey but I just feel it a little bit too fragrant for me. I-- Yeah. English breakfast all the way.

Anna 20:58

Yeah.

Charlie 20:59

Absolutely. Yeah.

Anna 21:00

English breakfast is definitely the most commonly consumed tea in the UK. It's funny you said builder’s tea because when people say builder's tea to me, I think about how strong the tea is. A builder's tea is when the tea bag has been in for a very long time and it's almost like the spoon is standing up on its own because it's so thick.

Charlie 21:20

Well then that's not me'cause I like my tea quite milky.

Anna 21:24

Right.

Charlie 21:25

Yes, I know we have a friend who it was.. it’s from Yorkshire, a mutual friend, and I remember getting into a lot of trouble with her once because when we went to the theatre together, we were going to share a cup of tea'cause we didn't have time to have one each. And you know those little packets of milk, you can get, the little pots that-- that come sealed. I put the whole thing in. I put, you know, this whole tiny little pot of milk into the tea. She went crazy at me. She was so cross with me because typically up north in Yorkshire they like their tea like builder's tea very, very strong. And I-- It wasn't even strong and like weak enough for me. But my-- she got really crossed with me so I vowed never to share a cup of tea with anyone ever again.

Anna 22:15

But, it’s-- it is personal preference, isn’t it? Everyone likes their tea differently. I don't like my tea bag to stay in the cup for too long once the water’s in because I don't like it strong at all. I can taste when the tea bag has been in for too long. Um, if the tea bag stays in for a very long time we call the tea stewed. So, if the tea is stewed then for me, it's quite bitter. And in fact, there's a brand of tea called Yorkshire tea. So, we have things like PG Tips, Tetley Tea and Yorkshire tea. And Tetley Tea tends to be naturally stronger, they might use a different type of tea leaf or maybe they put more tea in the bag, but it is a stronger tasting tea, isn't it? Um, but when you're having afternoon tea, they tend not to use tea bags. If you're somewhere really posh, they'll have loose leaf tea. And this is where it's not in a bag. It's, um, well what is it? It's like in a strainer, isn't it, that you-- you put the loose leaves into a strainer and you pour the water through the strainer.

Charlie 23:17

Yeah, so the loose-leaf herb, the tea, is put into the tea, but into the tea pot with the water. And then you have your tea cup and you take this strainer that you place over your tea cup then you pour your tea and then the water obviously goes through the strainer into your cup and then the loose leaf, the tea, is then caught in a strainer, but you have to make sure that you definitely do that because there is nothing worse than taking a mouthful of tea realising that the loose, the herb, the loose-leaf tea is still in the cup and..

Anna 23:54

Floating around.

Charlie 23:55

Yeah, that's not. That's not good.

Anna 23:57

Not nice. Yeah. When you accidentally split a bag..

Charlie 24:00

Oh, yeah.

Anna 24:00

...when making yourself a cup of tea. That's just not nice.

Charlie 24:03

It's very upsetting.

Anna 24:05

Yeah. Now, um, some people like to have milk, obviously, you'd like a lot of milk. So, you'd have milk in your milk jug, and then you'll have a little bowl of sugar. I'm assuming you don't have sugar in your tea..?

Charlie 24:17

I don't have sugar. No you can have sugar or sugar cubes. That's always cute and they give you that,little the metal tongs to take your cubes out of the little sugar pot and then plop it into your tea.

Anna 24:30

Yeah... So yes, and in some places, they might say,“One lump or two?”

Charlie 24:34

Yeah.

Anna 24:35

So, it could be a lump of sugar, a lump of sugar or a cube of sugar.

Charlie 24:39

Yeah.

Anna 24:40

Um, I don't have sugar either. We're both quite healthy in that respect. Now, we actually both worked in the same place, didn't we? We both worked as the dental receptionist for a dentist in London when we when we both lived in central London, which I always think it's quite unusual. I think you maybe put me onto the job when you were leaving?

Charlie 25:00

Yeah, I think so.

Anna 25:01

Yeah. But I think when you work in a dental setting, you can't help but become hyper aware of what things are really good for your teeth and what's really not good for your teeth.

Charlie 25:13

Yeah, plus, you get bad looks from the from staff and the dentist, if you're sitting there eating sweets or chocolate or something.

Anna 25:20

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, some people might have lemon in their tea. Have you ever experienced afternoon tea, where they brought out slices of lemon for you to have?

Charlie 25:31

That's usually with an Earl Grey.

Anna 25:33

Right.

Charlie 25:34

So, I think-- I don't know-- I don't know if it's more or less common, but usually you would have Earl Grey tea without milk, and a slice of lemon in it.

Anna 25:43

Mm-hmm.

Charlie 25:45

I've had it, it's refreshing. It's nice. But I think I'm programmed to think sort of tea should have milk. Apart for I do like a peppermint tea, or, or a green tea, so I wouldn't have milk in those.

Anna 25:59

Mm-hmm.

Charlie 25:59

But, but I'm not a fan of Earl Grey with lemon.

Anna 26:02

No. Peppermint Tea is my bedtime drink. So, once I've got the children to sleep, we try not to eat after six o'clock. So, we eat dinner with the children between 4:30 and 6:00. And then we take the children up and start the bedtime routine. And I tend to emerge at like 8:30 or 9 o'clock after they're down and then have a cup of, a large cup of peppermint tea. Just to, you know, have something soothing, but that's not got any fat or calories in so that I'm kind of on this like, like this intermittent fasting. I need to get 14 hours of no, no calorie intake. And that yeah, it's really nice. I love peppermint tea. Fresh mint tea as well. That's quite nice.

Charlie 26:48

I like having that when you're away. And they bring you the-- the peppermint tea, fresh mint tea. And then when they pour it so like if you're in.. I think it's Moroccan—the Moroccan thing, Turkey, where they lift the water up high. They lift the teapot high as they're pouring the liquid into your cup. It's seems

Anna 27:08

like aerates or something.

Charlie 27:10

Yeah, but it's just so-- it's just very cool watching, you know, and that’s the tradition. The way that they have their tea. It's very cool.

Anna 27:17

Yeah, yeah. I did watch something yesterday about the etiquette of stirring your tea. So, we tend to just turn our teaspoon in a circular motion. But apparently, if you're following proper etiquette, very posh etiquette. I think you do something like 6/12. So, you're almost running the spoon across the cup rather than spinning it around. And that's supposed to be good to help the sugar dissolve and not to spill. I don’t know. Sounds unusual.

Charlie 27:50

Then you have to take the spoon out and then glide it, like, along the rim of the cup in order to get rid of any drips.

Anna 27:59

Right.

Charlie 27:59

And then place the spoon on the saucer rather than just pull it out and drop it down onto the saucer obviously taking excess tea with you. You just slide it-- slide the-- the spoon along the the-- rim of the cup to get rid of those extra drips.

Anna 28:15

Place it down. When you have a cup and saucer because it's not typical now in-- in a British Home to drink tea with a cup and saucer. We drink tea from a mug, which we just refer to as a cup. But it's a mug technically. But when you do have a cup and saucer, do you hold the saucer up to your-- to your face? Up to your chest and then lift the cup off the saucer so, you have it close in case of a drip? Or do you just lift the cup off the saucer leaving the saucer on the table?

Charlie 28:47

It's really interesting actually. Now you're saying that, I think what I do, depending on who I'm with and where I am will depend on my demeanour, do you know what I mean, and how I hold myself. If I feel like I'm in a rather posh place, then I probably will-- I will change the way that I eat to be more...

Anna 29:06

Refined.

Charlie 29:07

More refined, more ladylike, shall we say? So, in that case, I probably would bring the saucer up as well and-- and hold the, um...

Anna 29:16

Handle.

Charlie 29:16

Handle, thank you, with my finger, fingertips and then bring it up to my mouth. And then...

Anna 29:22

Pinky? Little pinky showing?

Charlie 29:24

No, apparently you shouldn't do that apparently.

Anna 29:26

I know.

Charlie 29:26

It’s the opposite yeah, of what you think it means, but yeah. So, I do that I do do that. But if I'm with friends, or I'm just having a coffee somewhere and they brought it to me in a cup and saucer then I will probably even stick my fingers through the handle, grab the mug or grab the cup and then drink it that way. So, it completely depends on where I am.

Anna 29:46

Mm-hmm.

Charlie 29:47

And what I'm doing and what’s expected of me.

Anna 29:49

Yeah, what version of yourself you're portraying to the world?

Charlie 29:52

Yeah, absolutely.

Anna 29:53

Yeah.

Charlie 29:53

I'm not trying to be not myself but I just recognise in certain places and situations, there should be a level of like they say the etiquette and things like that.

Anna 30:03

Mm-hmm.

Charlie 30:03

And a--

Anna 30:03

There's an expectation of behaviour, isn't there? Um, I think that the cup and saucer is ideal for holding a biscuit. So, if you-- and actually particularly if you are not sat at a dining table if you are maybe sitting on a lounger or a couch or in chairs, but there's no, maybe you just have a side table, but if you have-- if you're holding your-- your little saucer and you've got your little biscuit on the side, and then you can dunk your biscuit, if that's allowed, into your tea.

Charlie 30:37

Did you see the Queen do it at Buckingham palace?

Anna 30:40

Did she? Oh, I thought you’re saying,“Did you see the Queen do it?” Oh, you're asking did I see the Queen? No, I wasn't really able to watch the Queen eat and drink. That was—she-- she would go to her own kind of marquee that was only she would have special vetted servants, waiters and people to look after her and I was looking after people like Margaret Thatcher and other VIPs but not her.

Charlie 31:09

Okay.

Anna 31:09

So, I didn't see whether she dunks her biscuit. I'm sure she probably does in private.

Charlie 31:14

Did Margaret? Did Margaret Thatcher dunk a biscuit?

Anna 31:16

Well, we didn't serve biscuits with the tea. They had their-- they had their cucumber sandwiches and their-- their pastries.

Charlie 31:23

And maybe that's why.

Anna 31:24

You can't dunk a pastry. That would just be messy.

Charlie 31:27

No, no. That's too far, Anna, too far.

Anna 31:30

Now afternoon tea, drink wise, obviously tea. You would never really see people drink coffee. But how about alcohol? Have you ever-- Have you ever drunk like champagne or some sort of sparkling wine with afternoon tea?

Charlie 31:46

Yes! Yes, absolutely. It's, oh, it's lovely. It's because again, like I say it's often for a special occasion, a birthday or something like that. So, to have a glass of Prosecco. Now, I'm maybe controversial, but I'm more of a Prosecco fan than I am a champagne fan. So, yeah, a glass of Prosecco when you first sit down and that can be quite nice as well before the—sandwich-- the food comes out is to sit in enjoy a glass of Prosecco first and have a ch....

Anna 32:16

Loosen you up.

Charlie 32:17

Loosen me up. Absolutely. Yes. I think they call it-- Is it high tea? The different name when you have alcohol..

Anna 32:23

Oh, right. I mean, I've heard of high tea. But actually, that's something for me to look up. I don't know the difference.

Charlie 32:28

Yeah, yeah. You’re gonna have that idea of different versions.

Anna 32:31

Interesting, you mentioned about being controversial with Prosecco. But I think actually, Prosecco is everyone's go to in the UK, because it's cheap-- it's cheaper. And you know, unless you can afford to buy champagne on a whim and have that as part of your afternoon tea. Champagne is reserved for very special occasions, otherwise, because it's so expensive. And actually, I think someone of an average palate, who doesn't taste wine for a living wouldn't really be able to tell the difference between champagne and Prosecco. I might be saying something very controversial here. But for most people Prosecco it hits the spot. It does the job. Two very common phrases there. And, um, yeah, it's much more affordable. So, Prosecco all the way.

Charlie 33:22

And obviously, as we know, Prosecco from Italy and champagne from France. But I always like to have a piece of fruit in my Prosecco. So, a strawberry or raspberry just to offset the sharpness sometimes. Yeah.

Anna 33:36

I love it when the fruits been in there for a while and you finish a drink. And then I'm very unladylike, and I grab a spoon or a fork, I scoop out the fruit or if no one's looking at use my finger to scoop the fruit out and then eat that.

Charlie 33:49

Yeah. I use my fingers it all the way.

Anna 33:51

Yeah, so our afternoon tea, obviously very yummy, very sweet. And also because of the-- like the pomp and the-- the event that is afternoon tea, you have to have a very nicely presented table. So, you would often have like a nice clean white tablecloth, which is always a worry with me because I tend to make a bit of a mess. And you might have a placemat or one of those large dining plates, and then your actual plate on top, which I never really understood, but actually that large dining plate is acting like the placemat, isn't it? And then you'll have your napkin which would be a cloth napkin, not a paper napkin. And that will be nicely folded. It may be held with a napkin ring, which is just a ring of metal to hold it nicely. My mum used to do the paper napkins but she would fold them in like a fan, you know design and have it in the glass or put it out on the, on the plate. I remember at Christmas or on Sunday lunches sitting there for ages folding all these napkins to make them into fans. That was always fun.

Charlie 35:06

I've never been round to yours and had a fan napkin I think I'm going to make sure that you did that from now on.

Anna 35:12

Well, now the children are getting older I'm getting in control again, and we can have nice meals once more. And then we talked about these-- these cups and saucers, and it would be the best crockery would come out. It's the stuff that gathers dust in the cupboard most of the time. But if you're hosting a meal or afternoon tea at home, then you'd get your fine china out of the cupboard, dust it off and show it off. And then it's always nice to offset everything with a bunch of flowers, isn't it?

Charlie 35:47

I love flowers. Yeah, always, always got to have fresh flowers and fresh ones as well. Beautiful. And I think people are going crazy now for table decorations. I know that whenever I'm having a dinner party or having a party of any description, I will pay particular attention to how I dress the table. Because I want it all to look just look really pretty and it to be part of the experience as well. And I think when you go to a restaurant or a special place to have an afternoon tea, it-- it is part of the experience, is how the tables dressed and also how they deliver the food comes in tiers as well. You have plates for your sandwiches at the bottom. And then the next tier tends to be the scones. Or nowadays you can have things like savoury muffins and things like that. So, well add an extra-- extra level so that, then you can have the cakes on top of that. And again, they come up beautifully presented and..

Anna 36:43

Yeah. These are called cake stands with multiple tiers. So, you have the plates layered up on these lovely cake stands.

Charlie 36:50

Yeah.

Anna 36:51

Yeah, fantastic. And you talked about, you know, different places that you might experience afternoon tea. We've already spoken about restaurants. But some hotels also offer this experience as well. So, even if you're not staying at that hotel, you can book in to go and have this experience of afternoon tea in their restaurant. And notable places in London for those of you visiting the capital are Claridge’s, the Ritz, Selfridges, Harrods and the Savoy. So, these places do very posh, and probably very expensive afternoon tea. Have you ever been to any of these places?

Charlie 37:31

Have I? I feel like I... Do you know, it's awful. I can't remember, I feel like I have been to one place, but I can't remember. The other thing to say is that you have to dress appropriately. If you go in jeans, and you're looking quite scruffy, they will turn you away, which I think in some sense, it's quite nice. Because I think it's nice to have a sense of occasion. And it's nice to make an effort and have standards and things like that. So, I think I'm-- I'm a fan of that.

Anna 38:04

So formal attire, or is it like semi formal?

Charlie 38:07

Semi, semi formal, so you don't have to obviously go in a ball gown and top hat and tails. But you'd have to wear nice trousers. And I think you can actually wear jeans but you know, smart ones, where you're, they're tailored and you've got the rest of your outfit is put together. So, you have to look presentable.

Anna 38:25

Gosh! It can be embarrassing to be turned away, wouldn't it?

Charlie 38:28

It would be. I think they do it very, I think my brother has been turned away.

Anna 38:31

Oh, really?

Charlie 38:33

Yes. And I think they do it very nicely. They're very kind about it, but they say perhaps it's not appropriate or do you have something else and I think trainers you're not allowed to wear trainers. They may have changed things now but I know traditionally, and years ago when I perhaps would have gone, you did have to present yourself accordingly. But one of the best places... actually I'm gonna say two places that I've been to, the best for afternoon tea, and this will tell you a lot about me, you already know what I'm like, but my sister and I went to the place called Lady Dinah's Crazy Cat Emporium.

Anna 39:11

Right.

Charlie 39:11

Where you have afternoon tea surrounded by cats. Now some people will be sitting there going that's very unsanitary and that sounds gross, but it's right up mine and my sister's street and you walk in and you get a table. And then all around you is decorated purely for cats. So, you'll have a tree in the middle of the room that has branches that the cats can walk along and then you've got loads of cat beds all over the place. And I remember Harriet and I getting there and being all fussy about the cats like,“Oh so cute!” and just wanting to stroke them all the rest of it. But then the food came out and we were like, right, forget the cats. Let's concentrate on what's important. And it was a delicious afternoon tea, really delicious, not just because of the cats, but the food was really yummy.

Anna 40:02

That's interesting. I wonder how much of your positive experience and the positive environment actually informed your tastebuds and your perception of the food because it can be altered by you know, your mood and your experience of the surroundings.

Charlie 40:21

Yeah, this is-- this true, it's true, but I do think the sandwiches were extra specially delicious. It also gave you a choice. So, I think I chose all vegetarian options, and they had lovely things that I've not had before, like sun-dried tomato and hummus. It was really, really yummy. And they came in little rolls as well rather than just the slices of bread. So, it's just a little bit different. And I think we had a few more savoury-- savoury treats as well, but it was really yummy. And then the other place that I went to was up north again, Yorkshire visiting a friend. And the reason I think I like this afternoon tea because there was nothing delicate about it at all. The sandwiches were full on huge sandwiches.

Anna 41:08

Like doorsteps.

Charlie 41:09

Yeah, you then got the choice of a quiche, or a pie. And then you had a slice of cake. So, you absolutely needed a doggy bag by the end, but I just thought,“Now I'm getting my money's worth. This is This is amazing.” But you certainly wouldn't want your dinner afterwards. It wasn't afternoon tea in that sense.

Anna 41:29

No. No. Well, I am certainly feeling hungry now after talking about all this food and especially when you mentioned pie, because I am a northern girl at heart and you can take me out of the North but when you-- when you bring up the subject of pie, I just-- my stomach’s just like“Rrr. Give me some pie.”

Charlie 41:47

What's your favourite? What's your favourite pie?

Anna 41:49

Well, my-- Well, I mean I am-- what's the phrase I was a vegetarian. And then I wasn't a vegetarian. And now I'm trying to be a vegetarian again, but taking small steps. So, I'm trying to cut out red meat for example, and any processed meats like or smoked meats like bacon and hams and things like that. So, just eat chicken and fish at the moment but phasing that out. But my favourite pie is like steak and ale pie, or meat and potato which they don't do down here. We don't have meat and potato pies in the South. But they, I think they're just really rich and filling pies. I mean pies generally a quite, you know, filling they're quite comforting heavy meals. But yeah, the-- the richness of, of a steak, steak and kidney or steak and ale pie with the gravy is just delicious.

Charlie 42:45

They call it comfort food, don't they? Because it's traditionally something you'd have on a cold day to warm you up. And like you say, it's the hug in a food. You know, it's a way of feeling comforted as you said.

Anna 42:57

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Charlie, thank you so much for joining me and talking to me about food and tea and in particular afternoon tea. We'll have to get together and do it together.

Charlie 43:09

Absolutely, definitely. Yeah, I'll take you to Lady Dinah's Crazy Cat Emporium.

Anna 43:14

I would love to go. I'd love to go. I actually saw it on the news and, um, remember thinking how wonderful an idea that was? So yeah, I'd love to do that.

Charlie 43:23

We'll do that.

Anna 43:24

Fantastic. Well, thank you everyone for joining me on today's podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. You can download all of the transcript and interact with that, learning more English vocabulary, just use the link in the description. Until next time, take care and goodbye.