This is It's an Inside Job, and I'm your host, Jason Lim. This is the show where we explore the stories, strategies, and science behind growing resilience, nurturing well-being, and leading with intent. Because when it comes down to it, it's all an inside job. A little heads up to my dear audience that we're going to be talking about domestic abuse and the tribulations and trials and the trauma that come with domestic abuse. So it's just a little heads up before we dive in. So if you've ever learned to keep your head down, read the room, and stay low-maintenance, just avoid backlash, well, there's a reason that pattern can feel so automatic. Sometimes it isn't politeness, it's protection. In today's episode, I'm joined by Dina Cort, a recovering invisible woman, podcaster, publisher, author, and advocate. She's the founder of Uglo Girl, publisher of Life Changes and Divorce Magazine, and host of the Life Changes Channel podcast. and she's also the co-host of Shift Happens Now. Dina draws from her experience in today's conversation, growing up in conservative rural Canada and surviving an abusive marriage to help others reclaim voice, agency and connection. So in today's conversation, you'll gain a clear understanding of non-physical abuse, emotional and psychological control that can be just as damaging and often harder to name. Also, the insight into how hyper-vigilance and people-pleasing form in controlling environments, and why they can linger long after you've left. And also the practical ways to support someone who discloses abuse, including what to say, what to avoid, and why confidentiality matters, especially after a vulnerability hangover. We also talk about the hidden ways if abuse can infiltrate everyday life, relationships, community even work and I hope you stay to the very end of the episode because I'll share the single most important insight I gained from Dina the one that reframed invisibility in a way that can change how you approach healing and support so without further ado let's slip into the stream and meet Dina Kortz. I'd like to welcome everyone back to It's an Inside Job. Dina, welcome to the show. Thanks, Jason. I'm excited to be here. What I'd like to do with most of my guests is ask them to kick off the show by them introducing who they are and what they do. Ooh, thank you. I am an author and a blogger and a publisher and a speaker, but where my passion lies is in advocacy. Um i live in central alberta grew up in southern saskatchewan and both are located in canada in western canada and my life has had some interesting twists and turns and from that i like to help people feel seen and heard and inspired, and that's where we are today because that's the space i want to walk into because i think this is a subject that we're about to introduce that I haven't had on the show, which I think is super relevant. I was wondering, could you, to the extent you wish to share, Dina, what brought you to this space? What brought you to this platform where you are an author, a podcaster, a keynote speaker? It's interesting when we listen to the invitations that come our way, and that is something I find, has changed a path in my life that I thought would be different, and what I really want others to consider and be curious about for themselves. So, right from the time I was a child, I was in a very strict religious conservative family and quite isolated where I grew up and it was really you know being quiet some form of invisibility almost was part of my life and I went right from that into over 30 years of domestic abuse and again that was reinforced to use invisibility to be safe to protect myself and my children as much as i possibly could so invisibility is often considered a superpower and i like to challenge that and get have people be curious about maybe there's places in their life that they are using invisibility and why and so for me bringing more awareness to an epidemic of abuse. That we are seeing globally, generation after generation. And if we can bring more awareness so that others are curiously compassionate, I like to use that phrase, to see others as maybe they have a story, or why are they the way they are? What has happened to them? What are they living in currently? And can I show some compassion? Can I help them? And that is why it's so important to me not only to speak out about it and to bring more awareness, but to, with my publishing and podcasting, to be a hub of resources that have been there or that help people who are there, or many in my audience also want to help someone they care about. How do we connect those people and help them and get them out of situations that aren't healthy and in many cases aren't even safe. So to be a hub for that is such an honor and help connect people. And just in our opening dialogue, I'm sure what you've just said has resonated and kind of activated people's thoughts. And so what did invisible look like in your daily life in those 30 plus years? I'm happy you asked that, Jason, because it's one thing to talk about it in a vague way, like invisibility used as a survival mechanism. But what it was, was being very hypervigilant, for one thing, watching for anything that may trigger abuse or discipline, say, as when I was a child. And understanding that that if I could potentially notice that trigger avoid triggering that become very careful to be people pleasing to watch what I say to always be again I use hyper vigilant because that is something that we don't necessarily realize we are practicing, until we're in a space where we don't need to do that and a lot of my behaviors around creating invisibility I didn't become aware of until I was safe until I was out of that situation and then I would find myself being that way having those behaviors around people that I it wasn't necessary to protect myself from and it was like I was waiting for that to happen it was a matter of when, not if. And then over time going, oh, this situation happened, or this comment was made, or, you know, something went sideways, and this person didn't lose their mind on me. Hmm, that's interesting. I was fully expecting it. So I would do, you know, you're trying to always be careful not to make mistakes. Don't show weakness, vulnerability, but also don't be challenging that other person. And you're also, as a mother, I was trying to protect my children. So I became aware again, once I was out of the situation, looking back and thinking of all the ways that I tried to keep them safe by watching for anything that they might say or do. We had, our oldest was, the baby was colicky. And that's exhausting. That's like, they're crying and they're screaming, they're uncomfortable, and they're up in the middle of the night for all hours. And they're very difficult to comfort and it's stressful for anybody but you put that into a high conflict um you know abusive situation and that multiplies so you know trying to keep the children um out of trouble they weren't troublemakers but i often wonder if they would have been more exploratory if they weren't growing up in that environment um you know try and keep them from disturbing the peace from making any mistakes from asking the wrong question from you know you just became so hyper vigilant and really trying to avoid any triggers and. What that creates is you're pulling yourself back. You're not using your voice. You're not trying things. You're not socializing. You hide in many ways. But the very tricky thing is then to portray to the outside world that everything is okay. So it's a very difficult, challenging balance that you're trying to hide what you're living in. And you're hiding it. You're in denial yourself for many people. It sounds like you would be aware of it, but for many people, they've come from that where they've grown up in that, or they think, well, I made this choice to be with this person and in this situation, I need to make the most of it. You know, how bad could it be? I'm staying. There's many questions over the years that people will ask themselves about, you know, trying to rationalize why they're there. Or, oh, I shouldn't have made him upset. I triggered that. I deserve that. You know, rationalizing irrational behavior, irrational reactions. And so you find that you will, you lose your voice, you lose your agency, you lose your choice. And there's manipulating that's happening and you know as much as you wanted to trust that person you've shared things that have now given them buttons or you know things that they can push it's almost ammunition against you it's ammunition exactly Jason you get it and it it's it's in the worst possible way to you know to have to have trusted someone shared things and now that's being turned on you so you start to become very careful to be act perfectly act like you have no weakness you can't you don't want to show that because then it can become a way of of abusing, You know, in the short term, your hypervigilance of walking on such a, it's almost like someone helicoptered you into a minefield with no map. You don't know how big it is. You don't know what direction to go with. And every step is like walking on eggshells, not to trigger this guy. And at the same time, not only are you protecting yourself, but you're hypervigilant to protecting your children and what they say or what they do. Or I mean, I can't imagine what that's like. It's just the exhaustion of doing that. And you've talked about decades. Yes, 30 years. What did that steal from you? You talked about agency, autonomy. What that stole from me, I'm still uncovering confidence and worthiness, my voice and opportunities that may have been there that I didn't have the energy or the space to entertain. And what's interesting is the misconception that many have around abuse. So physical abuse there was always that underlying threat there was you know like maybe a couple very very slight cases for me personally but even the legal definition in Canada and I don't know this outside of Canada I assume it's similar the legal definition of intimate partner violence includes many non-physical forms of abuse and the physical forms can also those non-physical often lead to physical and and some and the physical can also lead to homicide and the most dangerous time is during and after leaving that's and that is one of the reasons that people stay because you know they realize that this is going to escalate if if that person feels they're losing that power over you and so. Part of the advocacy work I do, pardon me, is to create that awareness that non-physical is damaging and it's harder to pick up on. So some of my keynotes, I share examples of things you may witness or things you may either personally or witness as a third party that does show it could be power over or intimate partner violence. And what's interesting is it's a pattern of incidents. It might not just be one big physical incident. And it's a pattern of demoralizing and undermining and isolating and devaluing. And it just eats away at you. And some of the things I mentioned earlier, Jason, about how you question, do I deserve this? Like I made this choice. Maybe that's right. I triggered that. I'm the cause of that. And we take ownership of that. And what I found very fascinating, there are people I have interviewed on my podcast or connected with with the work I've been doing even more deeply over the last three years is that some have been working with organizations or working with others who are in abusive situations, and they are working with them, supporting them and helping them. Meanwhile, in their own personal life, they are still living in abuse. And not even fully aware that they are in it while they're trying to support others. It's that, it can be that subtle. And once their eyes are open to it, it's shocking. And this is one of the challenging pieces. Because unless you've lived it or seen the damage from it, it's hard for someone to understand. Yeah, okay, well, how can it be abusive if you don't even know you're being abused? How is it destructive if you can't even recognize it yourself, even though you're aware of red flags and signs of it? And that is where I think it's fascinating to your audience, Jason, because it's very much an internal, you know, inside job that we've got ourselves convinced that either we deserve it, or that's just how relationships. Work or this isn't as bad as that other person's experience and we allow that to continue and we don't deserve that and so it's a real challenge educating people around this is a real challenge and sadly the perpetrators don't understand entirely in every case that what they're doing is abusive, is destructive, and that they're using power over someone else for whatever reason, whether they've grown up with it, or they feel that they have that. License to do so. It sounds like to me there, there's some for the, for. For the abused, it sounds like there's some level of cognitive dissonance where they are, they have some sort of narrative where they take the blame that this is normal, or it was my responsibility. I triggered, I triggered him. I shouldn't have done that. And to go against that, is that some of the blockage towards self-awareness? Because it was, it was interesting. You said, uh, you were talking about, um, a woman who works with it, but when she goes home, she's not even aware of it herself or have I missed the point there? No, no, you're, you're very accurate with that. Um, and I do want to say here that the stats in Canada, at least is one in three women and one in four men. So we often, say refer to the perpetrators as as males and it isn't always the case so it can be very difficult for a man who's in that situation to get support it's hard enough for the women but can you imagine a man saying like i'm being abused by my wife and people are so hardcore wired to think that it's only physical and you can be physically abused a man can be physically abused by a woman as well And especially men who... Really strongly believe in not physically hitting a woman or being forceful with a woman. So even in defense, even in self-defense. So it can be physical, non-physical, turned on a man as well. So I just, I want to make sure that we acknowledge that because men need to know that they can to ask for help too. And that situation is something that will be understood by others. So you've described domestic abuse as an epidemic. Yes. What are the conversations that most of us may be avoiding? And why do you think that scares us in general? Why doesn't this become a more open and candid conversations about an epidemic of disproportionate? Well, there is an epidemic that has been declared, actually declared in communities across the country. And in my hometown of Red Deer, Alberta, which is in central Alberta, we have the highest per capita rate of domestic abuse in all of our nation. And that's just the cases that we're aware of. The conversations that we need to be having, that we're avoiding, are for a few different reasons. One is fear for our own safety, for obvious reasons. You know, we don't want to get involved. We also have a culture of that is private. That's between a man and his wife. That's under their roof. That is between them. That isn't something any of us should be involved in. You know, what they do behind closed doors is their business. So we have that mentality and we are afraid for our own safety. We're also afraid if we ask someone, are you okay? Do you need help? You know, that, I'm worried about your safety. What if that person says, yes, I need help. I'm afraid he's going to hurt me or hurt my children. Now what? They've said they need help. And you're like, ah, now what? I don't know how to help them. I don't know now if I want to be in the middle of this. I don't want to know if I want to be involved. And so I strongly encourage people, and it's part of the work that I do, is to be aware of what is available. Be aware of what services, what organizations are out there, what is out there that can help someone to get the support they need. And it isn't all on you. so I also talk about hangovers and what I'm talking about is vulnerability hangovers so if you open that conversation with somebody and you have a concern. And they do need your help, and they do share something, it's going to alter the level of vulnerability that they feel with you. You may be the first person they've shared this with. And the way that you handle that information in that conversation could really alter whether they go for help or not. And if you hit them with the same questions that they've been asking themselves, is it really abuse? Is it that bad? You know, maybe I should just stay what you know i don't know why haven't i left yet if it's really that bad or um you know what do you feel that's kind of the default that people sometimes go to so if, jenny or bob come out and say i'm going through this and they're vulnerable, is that is that tend to be the most common response are you sure it's abuse you know I mean, because obviously that's going to stow even deeper self-doubt, right? And maybe encourage their ongoing narrative going through their head. It's very true. That is a default. We don't want to believe something bad of someone else. And if it's somebody that feels close enough to tell us this, we probably, good chance, we know their spouse. And we... Want to think the best. And we don't, we don't want to see that. We just, we don't want to see it. It's, I believe it's, I'm guessing it's human nature. We just, we want to think the best. We don't want to look at that ugly side and what potentially could be happening. And it scares us. It shakes our, it shakes the status quo. It's like, oh, that's kind of cringy, icky, dark. I don't want to go there. And so we want to question and make sure, you know, before we take this any further and get too serious about this? Are you really sure? And that could close somebody off and it could actually keep them from reaching out for help again. And I think it's important if we understand we don't need to solve it. We just need to help walk with them, help them. Be somebody who will say, hey, you know what? I will help you find the right resources. Let's look together. Let's figure this out together. I don't necessarily have the answers, but I think we can find, we can figure this out. What's really important, I think, first off, is to say thank you for trusting me. Know that what you've shared with me is safe with me. Because can you imagine? You already feel unsafe in that situation. You've now shared it with somebody. This could really turn against you and make things far worse for you in that abuse situation. So it's very important. And there's three things I often say for people who think they might be in an abusive situation. And one of the first things is to tell somebody. So if you have chosen to have that conversation and tell somebody, and they say, thank you for trusting me with this, what you've shared is safe with me, together we will find the help you need whenever you're ready. Because maybe they're just kind of testing the waters. They're not ready to try and leave yet. They don't feel ready, but I'm here to help you when you're ready. Then treat them as you would whether you knew this about them or not. Because they're going to be sensing that hangover, that vulnerability hangover. They're going to want to draw away, pull back, maybe shut down. They're going to feel really awkward and feel very exposed. And you can imagine in that situation how you would feel. So to have somebody reassure you that they appreciate your trust in them, that what you've shared is safe and that they're going to be there to help you when you're ready without judgment and that's a very important caveat without judgment because. I i've seen it personally more than once um we have some friends that are in this right now and, he's back in the he had to be removed from the home because of physical violence and he's back And I find myself advocating for her choice and saying, This is typical. This is a typical pattern. This can happen seven, 12, 20, like it can help numerous times. And you can imagine the escalation and the abuse each time. And then there might be a little bit of a honeymoon period and all they try really hard. And then it's like, oh, you know, it wasn't that bad. And, and then things go south again, and they might they go, they can be worse. And so it's very difficult not to judge. So I'm not saying I'm perfect at this, but don't judge. It's like, it's their choice. It's their situation. And it's not going to be exactly the same as yours, even if it's something that you have experienced in a similar way. Because you cannot, you know, a simple person might think, oh, why don't you just get out of the relationship? Just walk away. But it's the layer of complexity as you're talking about. It may not just be physical, but as you said, it could be verbal, it could be emotional. and if he or she is not the financial breadwinner of that family and they are a stay-at-home mom or dad. And there's also that, what am I going to do with the kids? How do I just walk out? I have no money. I have no savings because he or she controls everything. And that's just something I can imagine. Just another layer of complications. Like, how do I financially survive out there if I walk away? It's i i cannot imagine the complexity that someone has gone who's going through that has to deal with and as you said the vulnerability and the hyper vigilance and the walking on minefields and or eggshells or what have you it just i find it it just befuddles me i'm completely you know discombobulated just thinking about it well and to think how many people in our community communities are living with this so when i speak to a room and i describe this invisibility and what created that in my life and then the statistics around abuse and i look around i have people do a little exercise where i say okay look to the person on your right and the person on your left now in that group of three statistics tell us that one of you is likely to develop cancer in your lifetime. And, you know, we speak up, we support people through that very openly. But in that same group of three, one of you is just as likely to have experienced domestic abuse or are living with domestic abuse. And yet we don't speak up about that. We're quiet. And so what I say is, in other words, there are a lot of invisible people right here in this room. And it it it brings it right to our surroundings our community so be curious compassionately curious, without judgment consider that the people that you encounter may be dealing with something like that and you can imagine the burden and the weight and the exhaustion the energy it takes just like how you said jason like it just it's mind-boggling what you're living in and you're also trying to function in the outside world and and keep that hidden from them again more invisibility if you're at work it affects your focus your productivity and sometimes. The abuser will show up at work in different different ways they'll maybe be frequently texting and kind of checking in or they'll show up and see you know did you wear the outfit that i picked for you or what why are you in with makeup why are you talking to that person um you know checking your schedule did you actually have that late meeting and uh you know things like that so and it can also affect and this is also important which compounds the epidemic, if my daughter was living i have an adult daughter she's safe she's fine but if she was living in an abusive situation i'm concerned about how to protect her i have to be patient and wait until she's ready to leave and be ready to support her how is that affecting my my entire life but even my work life. I mean, I'm curious, and many of my listeners are curious, after being, you were deep into an abusive relationship for 30 years, what was your wake-up call? What was that allowed you to, forgive the simplicity of this question, step away, per se? I mean, can we speak a little to maybe your experience, to the extent you want to share, Dina? Yes. I had to experience a power shift, what I interpreted as a power shift, and it was, in my case. I was visiting with one of my closest friends, and we'd raised our kids together. And I've talked to her. I've shared this once before publicly, and her and her family are okay with this. We had never really talked about our marriages. You know, we were all, it was all wrapped up in raising kids. But this was years later, our kids were growing up, I didn't live in that community anymore, and I'd come home to visit my parents and visit her. And she said, how are you doing? And I said, yeah, good. Well, you know, there's some things, but okay. and I didn't even allude that it was to the marriage and she got really quiet, and she said I think there's something you need to see and I had no idea what she was talking about she comes back and hands me her phone. And I scrolled back through months of inappropriate texts that my husband at that time had been sending to her, And it was mind-blowing because, well, I knew they were in, I had seen it. She's confirmed this. Their marriage is just amazing. It's really, it's very supportive. It's beautiful. They have their bumps, but it's really good. She'd shown these to her husband and she texted back saying, please stop. And they said this had gone on despite the fact that my husband at the time knew some very challenging things that they were going through with cancer scares with her husband. Their, you know, her father-in-law had had very like a stroke and they just they were dealing with a lot. He was aware of this and was still doing this. And unbeknownst, like didn't know. And so when you look at the background of what the way we were living. So, I came from that very religious, strict conservative, and he portrayed that and continued that in our marriage. So, you know, very... Pious and you know whatever and then to be doing this right uh for me i was just like and she was terrified this was going to destroy our friendship hers and my friendship and i i just looked and i said you know what you just handed me my freedom on a silver platter. And this this to me was like it was just right there in black and white he dug his own grave and you know just so by her showing you this this these texts, it was fortuitous in the sense that it created a mind shift in you there was a power balance shift in your head and thinking okay you know all right okay this is my ticket this is my ticket out and so what i did was i had a five-hour drive home, And I called other friends and said, like, because there had been a couple of things that had been off over the over the recent years before that, that were off color something, you know, with other friends of mine. And I, you know, just like in person, I kind of brushed it off. Sorry? Coloring outside the lines a little. It didn't feel. Yeah, some off-color stuff. Trying to be funny jokes, but it was like, it just, it, it didn't land. It was really weird. And, and, uh, but we kind of brushed it off and now things started to come together. And so, um, I really needed to get my head around, how was I going to approach this? And, um, yeah, it all, it, you know, it, it, it was the catalyst for me to be like, no, I'm done. There's nothing left. there you know it just helped me really realize like no i just went out i thought i was leaving unscathed and over the last i don't know nine whatever years it's been i am realizing, and it's a good thing it would be so overwhelming to be hit with all of it at once yes layer upon layer of of the damage of of of what was um done through to me through that experience because i was pretty young as well when we got married I was 21 so you know very formative years and, went right from my childhood home into that marriage so not a lot of independence in between I well I did I mean I went to school but we were dating during that time so yeah, sure so healing in itself it does not sound like it's a solo journey it may start as a catalyst towards a healing healing sojourn per se so can you speak a little about sort of the healing process because you mentioned early in the conversation even today you're revealing more levels of confidence that are kind of coming back even though it was nine years ago. I think it's important to have community to tell other people to share with other people. Now, if you think you're maybe in it right now, the three things I would suggest doing first tell someone. And if that first person doesn't believe you, find someone else that you can trust to tell. The other thing is to start documenting. Because we tend to that, like that dissonance you're talking about earlier, Jason, we tend to try and convince ourselves it isn't as bad as we think but if you start documenting the day of what was said how it made you feel or what was done how it made you feel what happened how did that make you feel start writing it down even the little things and that you're going to be shocked at how frequent and how intense it is and that can be a then you're going to realize oh the third thing is to prepare to leave so get when it's safe to do so because when it gets to a point that you're like i need to leave right now i need to take my kids or like if you have kids or pets or whatever it is i need to leave right now i don't have time to think about like what paperwork do i need what financial papers do i need so i have a checklist on my website to kind of help people or they can ask ai or whatever for ideas what are some important things to have gathered. Uh you know medically financially legally whatever those types of documents and and things you need change of clothes maybe for the kiddos things like that have that in a safe if it's not safe to have it in the trunk of your car have it at a friend or family members so that you can just literally walk out that door and know that you have things in place to help support you when you leave. Those are the three things I would say. But community is really important. You don't have to do this alone. There are people who care and want to help. There are people who believe you. And just, you know. Don't give up. And we're not going to judge. If you just can't stay away and you do need to go back and you want to try again, we're afraid for you. We're concerned for you. But we're going to do our very best to not judge and to be able to be ready to support you when you are ready. It can be very challenging. i'm really pleased to know that there was a gentleman in ontario canada who recognized the need to he created an organization called shelter movers and i'm hoping that there are organizations like that you know in other parts of the world but they have free moving and storage services for they will involve the police if necessary they will come in and help to pack up and move the women or men's in some cases but the women's let's say belongings and put them in storage indefinitely all at no cost and this is all through sponsorship partnerships and. I just can't say how important that is. I can't say enough to have your belongings with you and the likelihood that that's going to help you stay out, to have some dignity, have some of your own things. And you will probably be in a shelter or a friend's basement or your parents' couch or whatever it might be in the interim, but knowing that you will have some belongings and they're being safely stored until you have a new home. I mean, that's part of the staging. That's part of the building of the confidence that, okay, now I can leave. It's having a go back. It's having a place to find refuge, whether it's a basement or it's a shelter. And I think all those points are things I wouldn't have thought about, but I think they're so pertinent to what we're talking about today. Because, Dina, before our conversation, of course, I've done research, looking at YouTube and listening to your podcast and on your website. And I wrote down, there's a consistent message you have. You said, I see you, you mattern. You know, I think that goes to the, at the top of the conversation, you know, you also call yourself a recovering invisible woman, right? Because when I used to work with trauma, and this is, well, 30 years ago, that's what it was. Sometimes they felt invisible per se. They may not always felt invisible, but they felt like they were the shadows, that nothing, everyone else had everything else together, but they were walking in the shadows of society, that they were on the fringes. And sometimes just by saying that, because that really, that brought back a lot of memories when I was counseling, I see you, you matter. And for a lot of people as simple as those words have they have a profound effect effect on people especially if they've always thought they've been you know in the shadows and all of a sudden someone says you mean something you matter to the world you know it can i've seen it time and time again how we can just you can see people shudder and you just see the tears coming not out of sadness, but almost out of joy and recognition that, yes, someone actually does recognize me. I just wanted to bring that up because those five words, I see you, you matter, is something I consistently see through your work. I'm so, I'm very grateful that you mentioned that, Jason, that that does stand out as a message because that's so important to me. So I'm really encouraged that that's seen. I want to add a little extra thought to that though sometimes that release and those those tears when someone feels seen and matter that they matter and they're seen and valued is also some fear, some vulnerability because they have probably, like I did, honed those skills of being invisible. And they're very careful to be invisible because it feels safer. And when someone says, hey, I see you, you matter, I value you. It can be scary. Exposure per se. Yes. They feel exposed and vulnerable. And then it's like, oh, what are they going to expect of me? Am I going to be enough? Am I going to prove them wrong? And I, you know, that they think I'm worthy, but I'm really not. And, you know, they're so beaten down that there can be a sense of fear there too. So that we want to just be gentle with how we see them and we don't push them too hard. I'm collecting stories for a compilation and anthology, a book around, it's called Hope in Hell and share people's stories because it's part of their healing, but it's also part of that awareness and it's also part of other people's healing to share their stories of the abuse and coming out of it and of their healing. That is a form of finding that voice and feeling stronger again. But it does need to be done with compassion, non-judgment, with curiosity. And they will need a little time sometimes to pull that together. So in the meantime, I'm sharing those stories in the magazine. It takes a while to collect enough for a book. But I do want their story to be shared with others so that it's really empowering when they've seen their story. And I like to also remind people that it's important that we share and speak up for those who aren't safe to do so yet so that they can find their voice to speak up for themselves. Do you find that people in abusive relationships, sometimes when they've heard the story of someone else, that creates a spark, that creates kindling for them to start the process of thinking, of shifting gears, as you said, moving out of relating to stories that they've heard of other women or other men who've escaped abusive relationships? Yeah. That planted a seed for me. So it made a big difference for me. And it was a close friend being vulnerable to share what she'd experienced. And she had just left her relationship, her marriage. And she shared some of the things that she'd experienced that weren't physical. And it planted a seed for me to go, wait a minute. This sounds familiar this feels familiar and i i had an incident um i've lost a couple brothers as they were young adults two different vehicle accidents and i i came across some pictures from one of the accidents and it was like getting kicked in the gut and i realized why after all those years, was I having such a strong reaction? So I sought mental health support for the first time in my life. And during that, it was uncovered by the psychologist that I had, out of survival, I hadn't dealt with that grief, because I didn't have the capacity, I had to be so hypervigilant, I was dealing in abuse. And she started asking questions, and we started uncovering what I was living in. And why that was so unhealthy, why that was affecting even my processing of grief. And so I'm so grateful for that opportunity to have, and she shared her story. She had experienced. The psychologist herself. Yes. And it was very interesting then when I'd have those conversations. And it's like the universe was aligning people when I needed them to hear these stories and to experience these things. And then there was someone I was working with, and her husband would come into the office, and the way he would talk to her was shocking. And it just, it was another like, oh my gosh, you know? And he wasn't being physical. At home he was being physical, but because she started sharing that when we showed concern. I was still in my marriage at that time. And these things were coming across my path and I was becoming more aware of, you know, what this was like. Sadly, that lady took her life a few years later because she couldn't, she just couldn't get out of it. You know, I'm a father of three kids. They're all adults now, but I have twin daughters that are 18. And to even think if they fell into something like that, it would, I'm being raw and unfiltered here, that would awaken such a rage in me against that, that guy doing that to one of my daughters that, you know, I'm not going to speak about what I would like to do to him on the show, but I... It just flabbergasts me. It just flabbergasts me that there are some people out there that have such a mental makeup like that. They feed off their confidence by hurting and cowering, getting other people to cower under them to give them a sense of self-esteem or self-purpose and what have you. You know, I've studied psychology all my life, but I still find it hard to sometimes wrap my head around that kind of, those kind of mind games, that kind of personalities per se. I'm just saying that raw and unfiltered, but it would instill rage in me if that happened to someone that I dearly loved. And that's something that came up in our conversation when we first met Jason. You asked me what, you know, my gut reaction is to these things. And it's not something that I have shared publicly before. It just lights up the warrior in me. That rage is just, it's huge. And I have such a drive to yank the power away from those evil like I have compassion around you know what has happened to them you know why are they using power over why do they feel they need to do this yeah yeah I got I mean I honestly do and we can't just keep pulling people out of the river we need to go upstream and address the perpetrators and what is motivating them. But yes that's not my work or your mentality that's that's you know there are people out there that can help those people but yeah if my daughters are someone on that i dearly hold close to me is on the receiving end you know those counselors can do something but i'm just being unfiltered here and probably inappropriate, but that's what awakens me. I think that would awaken any mother or father, you know, if their kids are in that, or most people I'd say, right? You run a podcast, you have a magazine, you give keynotes. What would you say your message is? What is the consistent message you're trying to communicate and get to stick with people out there. We've probably already covered it, but I'd like to maybe get a little more succinct about this. Well, I think the one thing that, you know, you are seeing, you are valued that you mentioned, but the underlying message in all of it is you are not alone. There are people who care and want to help. We believe you. Okay. If someone wanted to reach out to you, Dina, or what would be the best way they could get in touch with you? There's multiple ways. And I think that's important because, you know, I want people to not feel alone to be able to easily access me. And I'm assuming there will be links in your show notes. But yeah, they can send an email to hello at dinacourt.com. And I can also be reached at dina at lifechangesmag.com. So those would be two email addresses that would probably be the quickest easiest way and if you don't feel safe to email you can also dm me on social media again it's probably easiest to use the links in the show notes but instagram u.glow so the letter u g l o w underscore grl and dm me there we also have on our websites the an ai chat bot that is important to you can use that anonymously and ask questions around abuse and and just and get some answers We also have a confidential quiz, Is This Abuse?, on the homepage of the magazine. And there's different questions in there to help you kind of get an understanding of, are you living in abuse? And, you know, how urgent is it for you to consider getting away from? Thank you very much. And Dina, you have a podcast. I like to help podcasters promote their podcast. Could you tell us the name of your podcast and what the objective is or what you talk about? Well, I appreciate that invitation, Jason, because it's called the Life Changes Channel. Life Changes Channel. And we talk about all different types of life changes. Now, some changes that come in our lives are expected, some are unexpected, some are positive, some are negative, some might start out positive, and they become very challenging, whatever it might be. We do talk around mainly divorce and separation is where it started. And I've branched that out to also include financial, legal, career, education, grief, floss, aging. Health, because our lives change. And, you know, we aren't stagnant. We're human beings and we're ever evolving in all these different areas. And so to connect people with the experts or peers, people who've been through these things, but mainly it's around experts who can empower you with information. Well, Dina, thank you very much for such a candid and eye opening conversation today i'm gonna have to have you back on the show for a second episode once you get that book launched because i think that's also going to be a very important uh well book to promote thank you i would love that and i would love to have you on my show as well jason because, i think we have a lot that we can dig into to encourage people i look forward to it dina thank you very much for your time today my pleasure. Is often a survival strategy, an adaptive skill your nervous system used to reduce danger. And healing is learning when you're safe enough to become visible again, one small step at a time. That matters because people often judge themselves for the leftovers of trauma, the scanning, the second guessing, the urge to keep everyone happy. Dina's story makes it clear those patterns didn't appear because you're weak. They appeared because you're trying to stay safe in a controlling environment that punished honesty, independence, and voice. So what do you do with that practically? Well, if you're the one living in it, use Dina's three actions as a grounded starting point. Tell someone, one safe person, one clear sentence. Document incidents, key notes, dates, screenshots, anything that helps you trust your own reality. Prepare an escape plan, important documents, essentials, and a plan for a fast exit if needed. And if leaving is on the horizon, remember what we discussed, risk can increase during and after leaving. So planning and support matter. And if someone discloses to you, don't interrogate, don't judge, don't force solutions. Say, I believe you. Thank you for trusting me. Ask, what would feel supportive right now. Protect them from a vulnerability hangover by offering confidentiality and letting them lead the pace. Dina also highlights that abuse doesn't have one look and it doesn't only happen to women. Men and women can be trapped in abusive dynamics and support has to reflect that reality. Dina, thank you for your courage, your clarity and for using your writing, publishing and podcasting to make the invisible visible and to connect people to real resources and community and for the work you've done around survivor storytelling because stories help people stop feeling alone and sometimes that's the first crack of light. If you know a friend, a colleague, or family member who might be going through something they can't name yet, send it with a simple note. No pressure. Just thought of you. This episode might help. Well, thanks, folks. And until next time we meet, keep well, keep strong, and we'll speak soon.